But I find it interesting that the basic assumption of what an economy is for is completely different.
America's basic axiom, upon which all else has rested since the Revolution, has been "Liberty is more important than human life". This naturally leads to all sorts of "my choices are more important than yours" pro-choice behavior, not the least being our economic system, where personal profit is king.
In contrast, a stable state economy starts with the axiom "It is the primary duty of governments to support the general welfare of their citizens"- sometimes to the destruction of private choice, when those private choices endanger the ability of other citizens to survive. This is very much a big-brother, Holy Father anti-choice government; where your future is subordinate to your duty to your fellow citizens, including your ability to make a profit.
I just want to make clear the way I see this- to me, liberty is useless without human life, and the choice to be rich in material wealth instead of rich in family life is not a choice that I believe is valid. But when YOUR choice to be rich affects MY choice to have grandchildren, it's time to rethink the whole bloody system.
But don't worry.... This time troubles in housing will stay in housing. It's because manufacturing has done an "L" of a job.... Though this is uncharted territory, it doesn't look like manufacturing is positioned to shed enough jobs to generate a recession.
I don't believe this for a second. Thanks to the credit (not housing, though that was a part of that) bubble, this is MUCH bigger than just housing. We're now in a solvency trap- debt produces insolvency, which produces panic-sales of stock (not just stock market stock, but goods, durable and consumable), which produces deflation, which produces government bailouts, which are paid for with more debt, which produces more insolvency. It's already affecting *EVERY* sector of the economy. Without real M1 spending by the government, replacing debt with real money and hyperinflation, there's no "automatic" way out of this cycle.
Yes, we'll see individual industries such as housing recover- it's not like we can just send most of our population to live in caves, and houses, despite being durable goods, are affected by physics and the general thermodynamic law of entropy. But this will NOT be anything close to a general recovery, until we fix the basic solvency trap we're in.
I see signs now that the Obama Admin is indeed planing that type of infrastructure, M1 stimulus we need, and that might hasten the end, but these leading indicators will mean nothing without it.
But how much of the liquidity in the markets is fake? How much of it comes from such stupid moves as short sells, which arguably increase risk and chance of insolvency for all parties that it touches?
Of course, I got out of this market back in '04 when I realized it was nothing more than a con game for suckers.
Helping those who overextended themselves on housing with writeoffs vs. handing them monetary assistance.
For example, if bankruptcy cramdowns of primary residences were allowed, those overextended homeowners would get help, without reaching into their next door neighbor's pockets (let alone those who decided to keep renting because house prices were spiraling out of control).
Some people object to even that, but cramdowns at least continue the process of making housing more affordable as a multiple of median income.
If we give monetary asistance to those who overextended themselves and now have problems with a toxic mortgage, then the obvious thing for everyone to do, is to move into the biggest McMansion they want, don't bother paying the mortgage, and wait for the government check. Iirc, there are some people who are already deliberately not paying their mortgage, just so they will qualify for assistance programs (and pocketing the money or spending it on some other consumer bauble),
;) He later said no and they were significantly questioned in the House Committee where they said no....
now that said I strongly think to get any US taxpayer money Congress should be tying it exclusively to US investment and US citizen/perm resident workers only. Put it in writing, put it in law because who do we know who has not gone before Congress and lied their head off (ahem, Bill Gates)....
Also, Citigroup signed a $2B outsourcing deal while firing 53,000 people where they said globally but I'll bet most of those fires were US workers.
So, instead of analyzing the clips and written transcripts what we need is enacted into law that taxpayer money will be used to stimulate the U.S. economy, go to the US worker exclusively.
I wrote this post talking about US taxpayer money generally for stimulus and bail outs and having US taxpayer money simply be funneled offshore is a real major problem.
We need to demand lawmakers finally get serious and put limitations on certain activities, like US taxpayer money, be kept circulating within the U.S.
Regarding Wagoner's response to GM spending the bailout money in America, Wagoner was very careful to say that the bailout money would not go to Mexico. As to the question from Senator Tester whether plant expansion in Mexico was under way or planned, Wagoner said he didn't know and would have to come back later with that information. Hold your breath for that answer.
It doesn't matter if the money comes straight out of the bailout money account or proceeds from other GM funds, overseas expansion is continuing and will continue. The US taxpayer is bailing out failed auto-maker policies in the US to free up GM capitalization funds for foreign investment. The other two CEOs responded with the same cagey lyrics about offshoring. Only two senators in the entire 6-hour session asked about offshoring. They did not press for concise answers. They allowed mumbo-jumbo answers.
My point is that "Free Trade" globalization is what is destroying the US auto industry, and nearly every other industry. Planned obsolescence and market saturation in the US is also a major problem for autos. Their testimony about merger talks and consolidation would be a megadisaster.
What needs to be done is trade protectionism, break-up of GM and Chrysler into dozens of hybrid auto start-ups to compete for market share. Ford will have to follow suit or collapse. Ford doesn't need Fed money and stated so. Auto workers must be guaranteed jobs. There is a Main Street problem, too, you know.
"Don't get smart with me?" Hmm...excuse me, you are not dealing with a 5 year old, if you are going to make implications in your expression that you will resent having to deal with, then edit prior so you do not have to circle back.
Now, on to the issue. It still appears that you just aren't getting it. The self-reinforcing downward spiral will take the majority of us "prudent" Americans with it if we don't realize that this is not about "those who acted irresponsibly" because they can no longer be separated from those who did not. the collateral damage is already going too far. We need to address the situation using clarity moving forward and not by trying to necessarily "shield those who did not cause this" by acting in apprehensive half-acts that will only compound the problem.
At the foundation of this issue is housing and action must be done to significantly curtail the foreclosure and mortgage finance collapse that is occuring.
As far as the auto industry is concerned, well, lack of competitive subsidies, the past strength of the dollar especially with respect to the yen, and the ridiculous union contracts have ensured that this day would come. But again, I see no other option as failure of the entire industry is not acceptable for so many reasons.
The times we are in will go down as one of the worst economically speaking and so I agree with all in wanting to rage against the machine. However, right now we are still in a situation of having to stabilize the patient.
For example, we know that existing home sales in 2005-7 totalled 20 million. New home sales add about another 2 million.
Give 2.5 people per household and that's about 60 million Americans who bought at or near the top of the housing bubble -- and 240 million who didn't.
Seven percent of all homeowners are presently delinquent or are in foreclosure. On the other hand, 30% of homeowners carry no mortgage whatsoever.
As to credit cards, as of last year, 2/3 of all Americans either have no credit card, always pay off the card in full each month, or usually pay it off in full each month.
Don't get smart with me about "judging from on high". The data says most Americans have lived prudently and did not get caught up in the housing mania.
If you have better data, bring it. Until then, there is no justification for the Stanley Johnsons among us who lived high on the hog by being in debt up to their eyeballs, to reach into the pockets of their next door neighbors who didn't.
Hey, on EP we are continually implying dramatic policy change so this cannot happen.
So "us" or "me", we're not up on high at all. EP is all about us regular folk looking at overall economics and we are assuredly right down in the mud with everybody else, potentially losing our financial rear ends, that's why we are here.
There for the Grace of God Go I I would say most on EP get that phrase.
....I can assure you that the average folks I talk to, and I talk to quite a few every week, are well aware of the Pelousy Dems elitest attitude towards folks who shower at the end of the day sic.
The contrast between what we are wasting in Iraq and have wasted of AIG is also well known and not viewed with approval.
We need to keep our voices up and focused.
Interesting to see Obama attack the BushScum for failing to address the mortgage mess. Primarily as it would seem to indicate his realization that if he doesn't fix very large problem that his administration will be DOA. Now let's see if he's got the stones to squash the bugs in HIS party and get on with fixing things.
Something we can do with enough 'political will' as Krugman calls it so aptly.
I find it a bit suspect to make such claims as "the vast majority of whom.." None of the data suggests that, specifically when we look at the average debt load and savings rates of Americans compared to other countries.
Finally, as much as you may want to distance yourself from this issue and principle and judge from on high, the truth is you, like everyone else is in the middle of this maelstrom, and have little hope at this point of getting out of this better for it without these, however unpopular, actions being taken by both parties.
Let's also not forget that our judgements are inherently flawed, during the good years we looked aside at the wealth and bonuses these managers and CEO's received. Further, our Congress and Bill Clinton passed the bulk of the legislation that allowed us to get into this current position. This is blood borne by all.
Unless you are lucky enough to live in an area and be employed in a manner such that your property value has not started to plummet and your general industry is not going to be hard hit, then I suggest that you lean first to understand that anything that can get things back on a positive track is desirable over a philosophical line in the sand that is meaningless when on the soup kitchen line.
Personally, I find it ironic that no-one questions more fundamental issues in moving forward the right way and not letting this sort of thing happen again, like changing the metric of success from GDP. I trust that all reading here can see the resultant failure of this metric, while we are cleaning house we should start with the correct dashboard.
...a multi-billionaire thru marriage. I would no more give credence to anything this assclown has to say, nor will I even comment on same he's so out of it, than I would believe what George W. Bush utters. They are both deranged idiots who understand very little.
The Upper Tenth and their right wing supporters have awakened the citizenry. When you are told you cannot have a job, a loan and that education for your children is 'off the table...' while AGI and Goldman Sach loot the Treasury you start to question....
.....just what the hell is going on.
And once you start doing that the Upper Tenth is done for.
But I find it interesting that the basic assumption of what an economy is for is completely different.
America's basic axiom, upon which all else has rested since the Revolution, has been "Liberty is more important than human life". This naturally leads to all sorts of "my choices are more important than yours" pro-choice behavior, not the least being our economic system, where personal profit is king.
In contrast, a stable state economy starts with the axiom "It is the primary duty of governments to support the general welfare of their citizens"- sometimes to the destruction of private choice, when those private choices endanger the ability of other citizens to survive. This is very much a big-brother, Holy Father anti-choice government; where your future is subordinate to your duty to your fellow citizens, including your ability to make a profit.
I just want to make clear the way I see this- to me, liberty is useless without human life, and the choice to be rich in material wealth instead of rich in family life is not a choice that I believe is valid. But when YOUR choice to be rich affects MY choice to have grandchildren, it's time to rethink the whole bloody system.
These settings in "my account", at least for the Rich Text Editor, which I use to save time on formatting my posts.
And here's why:
I don't believe this for a second. Thanks to the credit (not housing, though that was a part of that) bubble, this is MUCH bigger than just housing. We're now in a solvency trap- debt produces insolvency, which produces panic-sales of stock (not just stock market stock, but goods, durable and consumable), which produces deflation, which produces government bailouts, which are paid for with more debt, which produces more insolvency. It's already affecting *EVERY* sector of the economy. Without real M1 spending by the government, replacing debt with real money and hyperinflation, there's no "automatic" way out of this cycle.
Yes, we'll see individual industries such as housing recover- it's not like we can just send most of our population to live in caves, and houses, despite being durable goods, are affected by physics and the general thermodynamic law of entropy. But this will NOT be anything close to a general recovery, until we fix the basic solvency trap we're in.
I see signs now that the Obama Admin is indeed planing that type of infrastructure, M1 stimulus we need, and that might hasten the end, but these leading indicators will mean nothing without it.
But how much of the liquidity in the markets is fake? How much of it comes from such stupid moves as short sells, which arguably increase risk and chance of insolvency for all parties that it touches?
Of course, I got out of this market back in '04 when I realized it was nothing more than a con game for suckers.
Helping those who overextended themselves on housing with writeoffs vs. handing them monetary assistance.
For example, if bankruptcy cramdowns of primary residences were allowed, those overextended homeowners would get help, without reaching into their next door neighbor's pockets (let alone those who decided to keep renting because house prices were spiraling out of control).
Some people object to even that, but cramdowns at least continue the process of making housing more affordable as a multiple of median income.
If we give monetary asistance to those who overextended themselves and now have problems with a toxic mortgage, then the obvious thing for everyone to do, is to move into the biggest McMansion they want, don't bother paying the mortgage, and wait for the government check. Iirc, there are some people who are already deliberately not paying their mortgage, just so they will qualify for assistance programs (and pocketing the money or spending it on some other consumer bauble),
That's the problem. Worse yet, they're using the money simply to buy up their weakened rivals, and saying that it's the same damn thing.
I have changed them and added a new class, quote3, which is style 4.
;) He later said no and they were significantly questioned in the House Committee where they said no....
now that said I strongly think to get any US taxpayer money Congress should be tying it exclusively to US investment and US citizen/perm resident workers only. Put it in writing, put it in law because who do we know who has not gone before Congress and lied their head off (ahem, Bill Gates)....
Also, Citigroup signed a $2B outsourcing deal while firing 53,000 people where they said globally but I'll bet most of those fires were US workers.
So, instead of analyzing the clips and written transcripts what we need is enacted into law that taxpayer money will be used to stimulate the U.S. economy, go to the US worker exclusively.
I wrote this post talking about US taxpayer money generally for stimulus and bail outs and having US taxpayer money simply be funneled offshore is a real major problem.
We need to demand lawmakers finally get serious and put limitations on certain activities, like US taxpayer money, be kept circulating within the U.S.
Regarding Wagoner's response to GM spending the bailout money in America, Wagoner was very careful to say that the bailout money would not go to Mexico. As to the question from Senator Tester whether plant expansion in Mexico was under way or planned, Wagoner said he didn't know and would have to come back later with that information. Hold your breath for that answer.
http://banking.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Hearings.LiveStrea...
three-quaters of the way through the video
It doesn't matter if the money comes straight out of the bailout money account or proceeds from other GM funds, overseas expansion is continuing and will continue. The US taxpayer is bailing out failed auto-maker policies in the US to free up GM capitalization funds for foreign investment. The other two CEOs responded with the same cagey lyrics about offshoring. Only two senators in the entire 6-hour session asked about offshoring. They did not press for concise answers. They allowed mumbo-jumbo answers.
My point is that "Free Trade" globalization is what is destroying the US auto industry, and nearly every other industry. Planned obsolescence and market saturation in the US is also a major problem for autos. Their testimony about merger talks and consolidation would be a megadisaster.
What needs to be done is trade protectionism, break-up of GM and Chrysler into dozens of hybrid auto start-ups to compete for market share. Ford will have to follow suit or collapse. Ford doesn't need Fed money and stated so. Auto workers must be guaranteed jobs. There is a Main Street problem, too, you know.
We don't do rage and insult on EP, so cool it. NDD is fairly objective and looking at macro economic indicators.
See the about and user guide for the rules.
"Don't get smart with me?" Hmm...excuse me, you are not dealing with a 5 year old, if you are going to make implications in your expression that you will resent having to deal with, then edit prior so you do not have to circle back.
Now, on to the issue. It still appears that you just aren't getting it. The self-reinforcing downward spiral will take the majority of us "prudent" Americans with it if we don't realize that this is not about "those who acted irresponsibly" because they can no longer be separated from those who did not. the collateral damage is already going too far. We need to address the situation using clarity moving forward and not by trying to necessarily "shield those who did not cause this" by acting in apprehensive half-acts that will only compound the problem.
At the foundation of this issue is housing and action must be done to significantly curtail the foreclosure and mortgage finance collapse that is occuring.
As far as the auto industry is concerned, well, lack of competitive subsidies, the past strength of the dollar especially with respect to the yen, and the ridiculous union contracts have ensured that this day would come. But again, I see no other option as failure of the entire industry is not acceptable for so many reasons.
The times we are in will go down as one of the worst economically speaking and so I agree with all in wanting to rage against the machine. However, right now we are still in a situation of having to stabilize the patient.
Dave
....maybe if it's in London it might be more honestly dealt with?
Nah...
Crooks everywhere.
I must say this sounds like, 'I don't want to pay my share of the costs of doing business...let the taxpayer suck it up', eh?
But what do I know....
I take a shower at the end of the day.
For example, we know that existing home sales in 2005-7 totalled 20 million. New home sales add about another 2 million.
Give 2.5 people per household and that's about 60 million Americans who bought at or near the top of the housing bubble -- and 240 million who didn't.
Seven percent of all homeowners are presently delinquent or are in foreclosure. On the other hand, 30% of homeowners carry no mortgage whatsoever.
As to credit cards, as of last year, 2/3 of all Americans either have no credit card, always pay off the card in full each month, or usually pay it off in full each month.
Don't get smart with me about "judging from on high". The data says most Americans have lived prudently and did not get caught up in the housing mania.
If you have better data, bring it. Until then, there is no justification for the Stanley Johnsons among us who lived high on the hog by being in debt up to their eyeballs, to reach into the pockets of their next door neighbors who didn't.
Me? Me personally?
Hey, on EP we are continually implying dramatic policy change so this cannot happen.
So "us" or "me", we're not up on high at all. EP is all about us regular folk looking at overall economics and we are assuredly right down in the mud with everybody else, potentially losing our financial rear ends, that's why we are here.
There for the Grace of God Go I I would say most on EP get that phrase.
....I can assure you that the average folks I talk to, and I talk to quite a few every week, are well aware of the Pelousy Dems elitest attitude towards folks who shower at the end of the day sic.
The contrast between what we are wasting in Iraq and have wasted of AIG is also well known and not viewed with approval.
We need to keep our voices up and focused.
Interesting to see Obama attack the BushScum for failing to address the mortgage mess. Primarily as it would seem to indicate his realization that if he doesn't fix very large problem that his administration will be DOA. Now let's see if he's got the stones to squash the bugs in HIS party and get on with fixing things.
Something we can do with enough 'political will' as Krugman calls it so aptly.
I find it a bit suspect to make such claims as "the vast majority of whom.." None of the data suggests that, specifically when we look at the average debt load and savings rates of Americans compared to other countries.
Finally, as much as you may want to distance yourself from this issue and principle and judge from on high, the truth is you, like everyone else is in the middle of this maelstrom, and have little hope at this point of getting out of this better for it without these, however unpopular, actions being taken by both parties.
Let's also not forget that our judgements are inherently flawed, during the good years we looked aside at the wealth and bonuses these managers and CEO's received. Further, our Congress and Bill Clinton passed the bulk of the legislation that allowed us to get into this current position. This is blood borne by all.
Unless you are lucky enough to live in an area and be employed in a manner such that your property value has not started to plummet and your general industry is not going to be hard hit, then I suggest that you lean first to understand that anything that can get things back on a positive track is desirable over a philosophical line in the sand that is meaningless when on the soup kitchen line.
Personally, I find it ironic that no-one questions more fundamental issues in moving forward the right way and not letting this sort of thing happen again, like changing the metric of success from GDP. I trust that all reading here can see the resultant failure of this metric, while we are cleaning house we should start with the correct dashboard.
Dave
is they are going to take the $15 billion out of the $25 billion already passed and signed into law and allocate it.
I think the unemployment report (duh) shocked Congress, but enough to wake up? We'll see.
I agree, Stewart sardonic skit is almost exactly what I've been writing about. I was surprised, pleasantly to see this.
Jon Stewart gets it.
What's Nancy 'Off the Table..' Pelosi's problem.
...a multi-billionaire thru marriage. I would no more give credence to anything this assclown has to say, nor will I even comment on same he's so out of it, than I would believe what George W. Bush utters. They are both deranged idiots who understand very little.
Ignore this rich fool.
....the pushback from worker's is on the way.
'Worker's Occupy Factory in Chicago'
The Upper Tenth and their right wing supporters have awakened the citizenry. When you are told you cannot have a job, a loan and that education for your children is 'off the table...' while AGI and Goldman Sach loot the Treasury you start to question....
.....just what the hell is going on.
And once you start doing that the Upper Tenth is done for.
Note the ethnic group of these workers.
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