Hopefully we can get more folks participating to learn/focus on economics/policy generally. I hear ya on that "what was I thinkin'". When I first heard about offshore outsourcing I was like "oh sounds great, hey jobs for the 3rd world, la de da, raise all boats", oblivious to economic realities of the globe and buying into the sales pitch.
You are younger than I am, but your heart is in the right place from my perspective. Our government was hijacked a long time ago and I truly believe that your efforts and websites like this are absolutely fundamental to making it work positively for the majority of Americans. I studied econ way back in the day (mid 70s) and I was fascinated, at the time, by Friedman's monetary policy agenda. So much so that I applied to Chicago grad school and was accepted. No stipend though so I went back to work instead.
Today I ask myself, "what were you thinking?"
So, we become older and wiser. But common sense is just that. You have the mathematical ability to persuade. You also have the passion to maintain this site for the pursuit of truth. You have attracted excellent contributors like NDD, Tony Wikrent, MidtownG, and others (sorry all, it's late and I apologize if I left you out. You know who you are though because you value contributing to this site). I come here multiple times each day to gauge the economic climate per all the wonderful links you provide.
You are doing a real service to our population and I appreciate it. Thanks.
That's where they get people paying zero taxes....will get an additional break because FICA is taken out by the employer, it's a split tax, separate from income.
They are saying those who pay zero taxes, that means income tax and this additional break is the FICA or payroll tax.
I do not believe people who earn zero income will get a cash check of $500 a piece is in the stimulus.
I've written now 3 posts going through the Stimulus bill but it's 1300 pages so more eyeballs are a good thing!
Yeah, I ripped those consumer based tax credits too, hello,
0-0=0! No income means no income means no income.
They should expand nursing school slots, give huge pay to professors to increase slots. You cannot even get into nursing school and they do not expand the programs, insist on paying a nursing PhD $40k when out in the field they make over $100k.
On the electronic records this is actually a huge cost in medical care so this would reduce medical costs significantly if done, problem is privacy as well as potential to offshore outsourcing the contract and/or the people doing the work.
But one area I truly believe is critical and I don't see any real money going to it is manufacturing as a whole.
This is bad, bad news and if they are not going to give them any money they had better modify trade policy...
$500 tax credit per person ($1000 per couple)- even for non income earners, First time home buyer credit (didn't excessive home purchasing get us into this depression in the first place??????!!!) and New auto purchase credit. These are suppose to stimulate the economy??? The $500 will most likely be used the same way the Bush tax credit was used --- pay down debt.
Also, It bothers me that the proposal includes money earmarked for Health Services. One will note that the only industry not plagued by layoffs and reductions in employment is the health care industry. The health care industry is not in need of financial assistance. The other industry growing is Government, this spending bill has the potential to increase the government, again, an industry that is not showing financial hardship.
A. citizen kind of got mad at me and I have on the cable news....and she's right (although I think she grabbed the wrong video clip)....all of the "Republicans" are now blasting picky issues that are not even the right issue.
It's like non-debate, debate again, spinning people's heads with bogus corporate agenda crap.
the problem with tax cuts, even those at the "bottom up" (which are assuredly better than top down!) is it requires people to actually have some money to get a tax cut on.
People do not have any money.
But isn't the payroll tax significantly cut in this bill?
I'm pretty sure that cut has survived.
I love the concept that the Stimulus is stimulating people to start learning and thinking things through!
The Proposal has already caused stimulation. Deep and rational thought process has been ignited. And what the stimulated brain is determining is that this spending bill will NOT spur growth in the US economy. What we need is immediate money in the hands of US workers/consumers. I propose a PAYROLL TAX HOLIDAY for 6 months to one year. Can you imagine what you could do with the FICA funds presently deducted from your hard earned paycheck?! And the saving to employers would allow investing in new projects, additional hiring, etc.
Hell, do what the disingenuous rethugs do, just state it as irrefutable, hold your head up high and do your best Mussolini impression. You'll have a best seller in no time.
I can point to some good books and studies already in the reads page.
I read a lot of these existing experts, they are the ones doing the hard work.
Although many of us on EP are moving into first principles and examining raw data...sticking with professional research concepts...ain't impossible to do.
Hmmm, grassroots labor research. interesting. there is always that credibility issue but if one's math and methods are solid, reviewed by professionals, I do not see why not.
In the end though, it doesn't matter and it won't affect the superstitious dance going on in Washington. Hell, you could estimate fairly well the job creation of school construction. But that wasn't "stimulative" I guess. So instead we get an AMT patch which won't create a single freaking job from where I sit. In fact, it might simplify some tax returns (where is the CPA outrage?) so you could argue that this is ANTI-stimulus! But I support your protests and am reading up feverishly on labor arbitrage, thanks to you. I believe you have the basis for a good selling book on this topic, if you can turn it out this Spring.
The BLS counts temporary foreign guest workers into the employment stats which deflates dramatically the unemployment rate for Americans in some occupational areas as well as distorts the under employment rate.
Comparing apples to apples on employment figures when the calculation methodology is changed...another nice post might be the history of those changes.
Firstly, many of these executives truly suck at their job so why they should be rewarded over and over for poor performance is beyond me.
Secondly, New York City has become completely stratified, a whole micro culture of the super rich and everyone else can eat cake.
There are a lot of cities like this in the U.S. where one cannot have a quality of life on normal wages and this increase in income disparity between rich and poor is one of the reasons.
New York City is probably #1 in this truth but it should be absolutely outrageous to the rest of the country when the New York Times talks about the inability to pay for spa treatments and what a crisis that is!
Great post middle, I really feel we are repeating history here but that is no guarantee things will right themselves to a more equal and just society.
Would have never thought about looking at numbers in this way. This puts that whole full employment myth in an entirely new light.
Have you ever looked at John Williams Shadow Stats
He calculates the numbers based on the way it used to be before Clinton. He has U6 running at 18% now.
As far as I know, Pat Buchanan is not a member of the Republican party. I think he endorsed the constitution party candidate and he ran himself something like 3 times for President as an independent. I recall him bashing Bush administration and policies extensively and I think he's written a few books bashing Bush administration, neocon policies but I don't track on punditry or am a "Buchanan fan" so I don't know the details. But you're going after the wrong people here and Krugman wasn't referring to Pat and Joe either in his New York times op-ed.
If you are going to bash something, bash this:
Now here they try to claim deficit spending, Keynesian economics does not work (when done right) in an economic recession. That is fiction as NDD just wrote in a 4 part series. But NDD proved it with statistics, graphs, data, economic theory.
I cannot even count how many pure pieces of economic fiction, presented as "studies" have come out of CATO and I've seen economic fiction (although less, depends on topic and "researcher") from Heritage too. (although I have read economic fiction from Drum major institute as well)
What I'm getting at here is to not just rage but to analyze. People, especially those who lean conservative do not get at all why one would do deficit spending and it goes against the intuitive grain unless one has a little economics to understand it and when to apply it.
....Krugman spelled out very clearly why all the bloviation we hear from the Republicans is wrong. Wrong economically. It's not necessarily wrong politically. We now, it seems, have a 'stimulus package' that is too small.
What next?
The economy continues to tank and the Republicans blame Obama and the Dems.
That's politics not economics.
I'm not going to comment or post here anymore if we cannot come to a realization that at this time, in this environment one is driving the other. I am not '...bashing brand name politics...' the Republicans are asserting a set of policies that will doom this country to economic stagnation. It's pointless to discuss the 'economics' of the situation when you have a fool like Buchanan, and no I do not care what he's said about H1-B, telling lies on cable TV.
This constant lying by the 'conservative' right is destroying the nation.
I'll hie myself over to my bog and let you folks do as you wish.
I thought it was a good segment. I think Krugman discounted the reduction in the deficit in the 1990's, which did boost the economy and he should have said when an economy is running at full utilization that is precisely when a deficit is a real drag and needs to be balanced.
He recognized great technological shifts, which happened in the 1990's..
I think everyone ignored the history of the 1920's leading up to the Great Depression, but that's talk shows.
I think Krugman is right to air his disgust at Congressional Republicans pounding on tax cuts when it is consensus that tax cuts do not stimulate an economy in a recession, wage deflation spiral and ...
hey, I thought the segment was fine. I mean Joe there acknowledged the Great Depression policies did work, he got the history correct and well, la de da.
I need to grab Krugman's book, obviously wise to republish at this time and studying other economies with similar economic indicators is a good idea.
Pat Buchanan isn't always right, but he isn't always wrong.
Krugman also got it wrong in thinking that Pat Buchanan and Joe Scarborough are the same type of Republicans that load the Senate. They are not. Huge difference between a paleo-conservative vs. that corporate lobbyist neocon globalist idiocy emanating from people like McCain.
I will say this one more time. EP is an economics blog. It is NOT a political blog. Therefore one cannot just bash brand name politics. The point of this site is to discuss policies in very boring details with bullet points, charts, graphs, quotes, even equations.
It was pretty clear that Joe or Pat were not defending, nor do they represent Congressional Republicans as a group.
But the real point here is to not bash group politics, groups...because what happens then is you also get group think, group endorse and frankly there is a lot wrong with the Stimulus bill and it has more to do with both parties refusing to put U.S. labor, U.S. workers first for jobs...
and that is part of Keynesian economics 101, i.e. the theory behind stimulus spending.
...sorry about that. Clip now fixed. As for Buchanan '...being right....' I'll let him speak for himself here in this clip. If you want to defend his bloviating go ahead. JOe wouldn't. As for partisanship I'll just have to disagree Robert. If you think most of this 'debate' about the stimulus package is about anything other than politics I submit you are badly mistaken.
Republican legislators in the House and Senate, insulated from our reality by their secure jobs, are intent on damaging the Obama administration to the point where it cannot govern. To ignore this fact is worse than ignoring the impact H1-B visas have on jobs for U.S. citizens.
yeah, it seems you can destroy an entire economy, rip people off for billions, offshore outsource their job, even kill thousands of people with toxic waste....
but a bang bust, oh yeah, that will get you in jail.
I'll bet it felt good as soon as you saw it on the screen, too !
But seriously, do you realize the power of this? 10,000 of the highest CEOs, attorney, consultants, and accountants of Wall Street in a computerized list of a madam?
Each and every one must be convicted.
And as a result, barred from ever working in their profession again.
Maybe there is a just God !
How do we turn this into the flood that cleanses the Auguean stable?
Hopefully we can get more folks participating to learn/focus on economics/policy generally. I hear ya on that "what was I thinkin'". When I first heard about offshore outsourcing I was like "oh sounds great, hey jobs for the 3rd world, la de da, raise all boats", oblivious to economic realities of the globe and buying into the sales pitch.
Robert,
You are younger than I am, but your heart is in the right place from my perspective. Our government was hijacked a long time ago and I truly believe that your efforts and websites like this are absolutely fundamental to making it work positively for the majority of Americans. I studied econ way back in the day (mid 70s) and I was fascinated, at the time, by Friedman's monetary policy agenda. So much so that I applied to Chicago grad school and was accepted. No stipend though so I went back to work instead.
Today I ask myself, "what were you thinking?"
So, we become older and wiser. But common sense is just that. You have the mathematical ability to persuade. You also have the passion to maintain this site for the pursuit of truth. You have attracted excellent contributors like NDD, Tony Wikrent, MidtownG, and others (sorry all, it's late and I apologize if I left you out. You know who you are though because you value contributing to this site). I come here multiple times each day to gauge the economic climate per all the wonderful links you provide.
You are doing a real service to our population and I appreciate it. Thanks.
is the payroll tax reduction, the FICA reduction.
That's where they get people paying zero taxes....will get an additional break because FICA is taken out by the employer, it's a split tax, separate from income.
They are saying those who pay zero taxes, that means income tax and this additional break is the FICA or payroll tax.
I do not believe people who earn zero income will get a cash check of $500 a piece is in the stimulus.
I've written now 3 posts going through the Stimulus bill but it's 1300 pages so more eyeballs are a good thing!
Yeah, I ripped those consumer based tax credits too, hello,
0-0=0! No income means no income means no income.
They should expand nursing school slots, give huge pay to professors to increase slots. You cannot even get into nursing school and they do not expand the programs, insist on paying a nursing PhD $40k when out in the field they make over $100k.
On the electronic records this is actually a huge cost in medical care so this would reduce medical costs significantly if done, problem is privacy as well as potential to offshore outsourcing the contract and/or the people doing the work.
But one area I truly believe is critical and I don't see any real money going to it is manufacturing as a whole.
This is bad, bad news and if they are not going to give them any money they had better modify trade policy...
$500 tax credit per person ($1000 per couple)- even for non income earners, First time home buyer credit (didn't excessive home purchasing get us into this depression in the first place??????!!!) and New auto purchase credit. These are suppose to stimulate the economy??? The $500 will most likely be used the same way the Bush tax credit was used --- pay down debt.
Also, It bothers me that the proposal includes money earmarked for Health Services. One will note that the only industry not plagued by layoffs and reductions in employment is the health care industry. The health care industry is not in need of financial assistance. The other industry growing is Government, this spending bill has the potential to increase the government, again, an industry that is not showing financial hardship.
A. citizen kind of got mad at me and I have on the cable news....and she's right (although I think she grabbed the wrong video clip)....all of the "Republicans" are now blasting picky issues that are not even the right issue.
It's like non-debate, debate again, spinning people's heads with bogus corporate agenda crap.
the problem with tax cuts, even those at the "bottom up" (which are assuredly better than top down!) is it requires people to actually have some money to get a tax cut on.
People do not have any money.
But isn't the payroll tax significantly cut in this bill?
I'm pretty sure that cut has survived.
I love the concept that the Stimulus is stimulating people to start learning and thinking things through!
The Proposal has already caused stimulation. Deep and rational thought process has been ignited. And what the stimulated brain is determining is that this spending bill will NOT spur growth in the US economy. What we need is immediate money in the hands of US workers/consumers. I propose a PAYROLL TAX HOLIDAY for 6 months to one year. Can you imagine what you could do with the FICA funds presently deducted from your hard earned paycheck?! And the saving to employers would allow investing in new projects, additional hiring, etc.
Hell, do what the disingenuous rethugs do, just state it as irrefutable, hold your head up high and do your best Mussolini impression. You'll have a best seller in no time.
I can point to some good books and studies already in the reads page.
I read a lot of these existing experts, they are the ones doing the hard work.
Although many of us on EP are moving into first principles and examining raw data...sticking with professional research concepts...ain't impossible to do.
Hmmm, grassroots labor research. interesting. there is always that credibility issue but if one's math and methods are solid, reviewed by professionals, I do not see why not.
In the end though, it doesn't matter and it won't affect the superstitious dance going on in Washington. Hell, you could estimate fairly well the job creation of school construction. But that wasn't "stimulative" I guess. So instead we get an AMT patch which won't create a single freaking job from where I sit. In fact, it might simplify some tax returns (where is the CPA outrage?) so you could argue that this is ANTI-stimulus! But I support your protests and am reading up feverishly on labor arbitrage, thanks to you. I believe you have the basis for a good selling book on this topic, if you can turn it out this Spring.
The BLS counts temporary foreign guest workers into the employment stats which deflates dramatically the unemployment rate for Americans in some occupational areas as well as distorts the under employment rate.
Comparing apples to apples on employment figures when the calculation methodology is changed...another nice post might be the history of those changes.
Firstly, many of these executives truly suck at their job so why they should be rewarded over and over for poor performance is beyond me.
Secondly, New York City has become completely stratified, a whole micro culture of the super rich and everyone else can eat cake.
There are a lot of cities like this in the U.S. where one cannot have a quality of life on normal wages and this increase in income disparity between rich and poor is one of the reasons.
New York City is probably #1 in this truth but it should be absolutely outrageous to the rest of the country when the New York Times talks about the inability to pay for spa treatments and what a crisis that is!
Great post middle, I really feel we are repeating history here but that is no guarantee things will right themselves to a more equal and just society.
Would have never thought about looking at numbers in this way. This puts that whole full employment myth in an entirely new light.
Have you ever looked at John Williams Shadow Stats
He calculates the numbers based on the way it used to be before Clinton. He has U6 running at 18% now.
It has always been about class warfare.
As far as I know, Pat Buchanan is not a member of the Republican party. I think he endorsed the constitution party candidate and he ran himself something like 3 times for President as an independent. I recall him bashing Bush administration and policies extensively and I think he's written a few books bashing Bush administration, neocon policies but I don't track on punditry or am a "Buchanan fan" so I don't know the details. But you're going after the wrong people here and Krugman wasn't referring to Pat and Joe either in his New York times op-ed.
If you are going to bash something, bash this:
Now here they try to claim deficit spending, Keynesian economics does not work (when done right) in an economic recession. That is fiction as NDD just wrote in a 4 part series. But NDD proved it with statistics, graphs, data, economic theory.
I cannot even count how many pure pieces of economic fiction, presented as "studies" have come out of CATO and I've seen economic fiction (although less, depends on topic and "researcher") from Heritage too. (although I have read economic fiction from Drum major institute as well)
What I'm getting at here is to not just rage but to analyze. People, especially those who lean conservative do not get at all why one would do deficit spending and it goes against the intuitive grain unless one has a little economics to understand it and when to apply it.
....Krugman spelled out very clearly why all the bloviation we hear from the Republicans is wrong. Wrong economically. It's not necessarily wrong politically. We now, it seems, have a 'stimulus package' that is too small.
What next?
The economy continues to tank and the Republicans blame Obama and the Dems.
That's politics not economics.
I'm not going to comment or post here anymore if we cannot come to a realization that at this time, in this environment one is driving the other. I am not '...bashing brand name politics...' the Republicans are asserting a set of policies that will doom this country to economic stagnation. It's pointless to discuss the 'economics' of the situation when you have a fool like Buchanan, and no I do not care what he's said about H1-B, telling lies on cable TV.
This constant lying by the 'conservative' right is destroying the nation.
I'll hie myself over to my bog and let you folks do as you wish.
I thought it was a good segment. I think Krugman discounted the reduction in the deficit in the 1990's, which did boost the economy and he should have said when an economy is running at full utilization that is precisely when a deficit is a real drag and needs to be balanced.
He recognized great technological shifts, which happened in the 1990's..
I think everyone ignored the history of the 1920's leading up to the Great Depression, but that's talk shows.
I think Krugman is right to air his disgust at Congressional Republicans pounding on tax cuts when it is consensus that tax cuts do not stimulate an economy in a recession, wage deflation spiral and ...
hey, I thought the segment was fine. I mean Joe there acknowledged the Great Depression policies did work, he got the history correct and well, la de da.
I need to grab Krugman's book, obviously wise to republish at this time and studying other economies with similar economic indicators is a good idea.
Pat Buchanan isn't always right, but he isn't always wrong.
Krugman also got it wrong in thinking that Pat Buchanan and Joe Scarborough are the same type of Republicans that load the Senate. They are not. Huge difference between a paleo-conservative vs. that corporate lobbyist neocon globalist idiocy emanating from people like McCain.
I will say this one more time. EP is an economics blog. It is NOT a political blog. Therefore one cannot just bash brand name politics. The point of this site is to discuss policies in very boring details with bullet points, charts, graphs, quotes, even equations.
It was pretty clear that Joe or Pat were not defending, nor do they represent Congressional Republicans as a group.
But the real point here is to not bash group politics, groups...because what happens then is you also get group think, group endorse and frankly there is a lot wrong with the Stimulus bill and it has more to do with both parties refusing to put U.S. labor, U.S. workers first for jobs...
and that is part of Keynesian economics 101, i.e. the theory behind stimulus spending.
...sorry about that. Clip now fixed. As for Buchanan '...being right....' I'll let him speak for himself here in this clip. If you want to defend his bloviating go ahead. JOe wouldn't. As for partisanship I'll just have to disagree Robert. If you think most of this 'debate' about the stimulus package is about anything other than politics I submit you are badly mistaken.
Republican legislators in the House and Senate, insulated from our reality by their secure jobs, are intent on damaging the Obama administration to the point where it cannot govern. To ignore this fact is worse than ignoring the impact H1-B visas have on jobs for U.S. citizens.
yeah, it seems you can destroy an entire economy, rip people off for billions, offshore outsource their job, even kill thousands of people with toxic waste....
but a bang bust, oh yeah, that will get you in jail.
;) Go for it!
then created a classic you just did:
I'll bet it felt good as soon as you saw it on the screen, too !
But seriously, do you realize the power of this? 10,000 of the highest CEOs, attorney, consultants, and accountants of Wall Street in a computerized list of a madam?
Each and every one must be convicted.
And as a result, barred from ever working in their profession again.
Maybe there is a just God !
How do we turn this into the flood that cleanses the Auguean stable?
ridiculous! If Spitzer goes down for this they should assuredly go down....trying to make their rock off a corporate business expense...
that is major, major, major tax fraud! noodling the naughty is not a business expense!
(realize I'm making these phrases up as I type).
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