Maria, there has always been migratory flow around the border, but ordinary Americans have become "very intense about the border" because there has been huge in-migration into regions of the U.S. that have not traditionally been areas of migration from Mexico. This has caused not only the depression of wages and the destruction of livelihoods for low-earning Americans, but serious amounts of social and cultural disruption. Sorry, but "Mexicans' land" was not "being taken by US citizens and their rights stripped away" in places like Iowa or Illinois, or Virginia or Washington State. That is not to bash the Mexican migrants, who are responding to economic pressures brought into play by the elites of both nations, who have enacted self-serving policies that have disrupted the lives of ordinary citizens of both Mexico and America. And while it is undoubtedly true that the conquests and policies of "rich America" have negatively affected Mexico, the relative wealth and poverty of these two countries is due to many other factors beyond the behavior of those wicked Americans, it is not the result of "natural forces", and Mexico is not going to become wealthy merely by some process of osmotic equalization. (Actually, Mexico is a fairly wealthy country, with lots of really rich people. It's just that the wealth is very unequally distributed. If anything, under current policies the U.S. seems to be "osmotically equalizing" to the pronounced inequality of wealth characteristic of Mexico, rather than Mexicans being raised to the prosperous middle-class model that used to characterize the U.S.)
I was thinking about how, as it is, they are refusing to renegotiate on mortgages that are clearly predatory and given a 30 yr. normal fixed, the homeowner would have no problems paying...
so if they consolidate even further, there will be even less competition on rates, mortgages, credit.
Well, it didn't work out so well under Bush. Regardless of whether or not it happens to go into effect under Obama, the Social Security system is in need of a massive overhaul - we are not going to be able to afford all the baby boomers when they start drawing their SS. Social Security was something on the order of about 15 - 20 years from overdrawing, which is a long ball estimate, and Medicare and Medicaid were ten years or less from over extension. Even if we manage to privatize Social Security or mandate that all funds withdrawn from pay will be withdrawn and held in an savings only account for only that person, there is still a massive gap that is going to have to be made up at one point or another. Even if the Bush plan had succeeded, and SS payments had gone into a government held 401k, it still would have tanked during the stock market slump. Beyond just a privately held savings account that you can't touch until age 65, there isn't a whole lot we can really do with Social Security. We may have to just pitch the whole thing.
You DO know that companies place ads in places they hope to hook into cheap illegal labor, right?
I do know this, and I regularly check Mexican web sites for such adverts before doing business with a company. If they're skimping on labor costs, who knows what else they'll skimp on- such companies are untrustworthy.
It's like they contract out corporate lobbyist agenda to these few people and in turn those people, as if the are independent (and who here believes Friedman can balance an algebraic equation never mind tackle international trade theory) and then they spin a great tale of pure fiction, which in turn is promoted by additional corporate media interests and presented as truth.
My God, the United States is on the brink of Economic Armageddon and these various institutions don't get it...if the middle class, the U.S. goes down, the entire world, including their corporate media empires....goes down.
but the issue that is refused to be recognized so often is how this erodes wage levels by increasing supply as well as subverting employment law, taxes etc. i.e. a Race to the Bottom for everyone. I'm also saying Guatemala (in this case for that's where this guy is from) needs a strong regional economy that is also supporting it's national workforce.
I'm going after this idea that is so discounted in international trade theory and by economists which is that while they acknowledge regional/local economies may suffer from globalization, they completely discount the time window of that suffering as well as it's cumulative effects.
My next statement is pure hypothesis, completely unproved by me or investigated...but I suspect strongly that those local economies, or "regional economic destruction" add up to national economic malaise and their discounting in international trade theory is a huge "bad math" error. Again, not proven, I have to look into this, just a intuitive theory on my part.
The rest, the wage repression, oversupply, forced migration....other economists have talked about just the corporate pundits will rarely address.
more of a request to write up the budget deficit projections and the various issues with foreign held debt, possible comparison/contrast with 1930's/WWII deficit spending...
What I mean to say was more a reminder because many of the political sites....you really cannot analyze from first principles if that analyze leads to a conclusion which is against a party platform or some sort of agenda...
So, nothing "to you" per say but just a another reminder that we have the freedom to look at any policy, any paper, any agenda and analyze it from first principles, regardless of where it leads us....
i.e. you have the freedom on EP because it's an economic site that I dare say isn't always available on the political sites.
Yeah, the GOP vs. the deficit hawks...I don't know what the "GOP leadership" is about but it doesn't seem to be based on any economic theory I am aware of that has been validated in statistical reality. I think they too are reading their "data" from corporate lobbyist "research" papers, most notably CATO.
Would be awesome if you took it on and EP is officially non-partisan and that is so you can reach conclusions based on objectivity instead of towing the partisan line regardless of your discoveries.
Huh? I hate what the Republican party has come to, but I've spent much of the past three weeks slamming the Obama Administration and the Wall Street tools in Congress. I think they've both sold out.
But maybe I am reading more into your statement than actually exists.
Well, even though you begin with a logical fallacy so weak it feels like pleading, I still gave the post a read.
Fact is, there is not just one thing "fueling" immigration. Knowing they can get paid more "uptown" than "downtown" is one reason workers come. And a very big reason for much of it of course.
Another is that it's part of an understood deal. The US has been recruiting labor for generations from Mexico. Before we got very intense about the border, it was a regular thing. Migration back and forth over the border. It's only lately that more and more people stay here. Because it's too hard to go back and forth with all the stepped up border patrol etc. I mean....it's not as if they float up here when low on cash, either. You DO know that companies place ads in places they hope to hook into cheap illegal labor, right? It's not a secret. Even before the Bracero program it was a regular thing. And before that, Mexicans' land was being taken by US citizens and their rights stripped away until bloggers today imagine the border is a real thing that can obliterate truth and history and the patterns of nature.
Anyway, it's ridiculous to jot off some simplified post that ends up saying the way to stop people from seeking ways to quell their hardship and hunger is to be punitive or more forceful. If not ridiculous, than just not very intelligent.
Migration north and south will definitely not ceased as long as this global system is one in which one nation can live rich in part at the expense of those around her. Think of it as a larger scale version of osmosis, that natural event dictated by inequal forces that both exist on disparate sides of a membrane wall and that will, in time, equalize.
It was apparent to me from the outset that their method of assigning ethnicity was totally useless in the modern world (and most likely, increasingly useless since the late 1700s and the first round of "global trade" with the invention of the Cutter sailing ship.
I didn't need to get more than three pages in to see that. Too bad I couldn't offer positive proof despite my "non-english" surname; my grandfather's patent for preform concrete stairs is 1958, and they didn't go back any further than 1975.
at the top. He references the paper, which I link to in a comment on here. The paper is pretty complex (although in my opinion written so to hide it's incredible assumptions and methodology flaws) and of course it's conclusions are being written as fact and now used around the Internets...
so I will link to the actual paper for when one reads it, hopefully you can parse out some of what I and probably others are pointing to and possibly find a few additional flaws.
and write up an analysis on deficit spending in recessions.
How does this compare to the deficit spending at maximum during WWII? What is different? Could the U.S. be heading towards hyperinflation, a plain default on it's debt or not?
I think we need to examine the big picture here in terms of who is holding U.S. debt, the service on this level of debt, the potential future GDP growth to pay it off and imports.
I'm a firm believer in Keynesian economics, deficit spending but only using government expenditures being recirculated into that domestic economy for a stimulative effect...
and I'm not so sure that's what is really happening here.
Would be awesome if you took it on and EP is officially non-partisan and that is so you can reach conclusions based on objectivity instead of towing the partisan line regardless of your discoveries.
What inspired the rant? I couldn't find a single link to either the brain dead patent report (I wanted to see if they, like one Usenet troll I ran into about 15 years ago, thought my grandfather was Aramaic!) or Tom "I never met a foreigner I didn't like" Friedman's article.
I forgot an additional in this absurd paper. They never propose the counter to show that if U.S. citizens had been used instead of temporary guest workers, the patent output would have been the same...then my favorite, literally they do not count all of the patent holders "surnames" of each patent. A patent can be generated by an entire team and is often the work for 2 or 3. Then, frankly inventors are left off of patents as well. This is completely illegal, but it assuredly happens in high tech. Ask anyone in Silicon valley if they know of an engineer who got screwed in a patent and their name left off, attributed to another ....I'll bet that survey would be > 50% who say yes.
I was thinking we should hold a contest. The research paper that is the most Economic fiction of the year award. There are so many to choose from so we could have the winner and then runner's up.
I am positive a lot of these think tanks and in this case, Harvard (which writes propaganda continually due to their own interests on this in their own newspaper) believe regular people do not read their research....well, the reality is we too have PhDs and Masters degrees, knowledge of statistics, scientific methodology....so I say we all use it and start blasting these things.
These "studies" end up on Congressional Staffers desks as "fact" when they simply are not fact and one can see this clearly when one reads the research paper itself.
This one, here. I mean seriously read this...
can you believe anyone in their right mind would take two homogeneous cultures and try to compare those to the most diverse, heterogeneous demographics in the world and claim that is valid? Jesus.
I'm just wondering if I wrap my mathematics into logs...can I get an Academic job at Harvard. Ooops, guess not because I won't conclude what they want in advance. God.
Maria, there has always been migratory flow around the border, but ordinary Americans have become "very intense about the border" because there has been huge in-migration into regions of the U.S. that have not traditionally been areas of migration from Mexico. This has caused not only the depression of wages and the destruction of livelihoods for low-earning Americans, but serious amounts of social and cultural disruption. Sorry, but "Mexicans' land" was not "being taken by US citizens and their rights stripped away" in places like Iowa or Illinois, or Virginia or Washington State. That is not to bash the Mexican migrants, who are responding to economic pressures brought into play by the elites of both nations, who have enacted self-serving policies that have disrupted the lives of ordinary citizens of both Mexico and America. And while it is undoubtedly true that the conquests and policies of "rich America" have negatively affected Mexico, the relative wealth and poverty of these two countries is due to many other factors beyond the behavior of those wicked Americans, it is not the result of "natural forces", and Mexico is not going to become wealthy merely by some process of osmotic equalization. (Actually, Mexico is a fairly wealthy country, with lots of really rich people. It's just that the wealth is very unequally distributed. If anything, under current policies the U.S. seems to be "osmotically equalizing" to the pronounced inequality of wealth characteristic of Mexico, rather than Mexicans being raised to the prosperous middle-class model that used to characterize the U.S.)
I was thinking about how, as it is, they are refusing to renegotiate on mortgages that are clearly predatory and given a 30 yr. normal fixed, the homeowner would have no problems paying...
so if they consolidate even further, there will be even less competition on rates, mortgages, credit.
They scrambled around in buyouts to make themsleves too big to fail.
You notice how none of them are turning down the money or giving it back though?
It has always been about class warfare.
is that paper was funded by a NSF grant. Give me a break! "English sounding" surnames?
The fact that such a moron could get crap like this in the NYT says plenty about why the Mexican billionaire Slim had to bail the newspaper out.
Well, it didn't work out so well under Bush. Regardless of whether or not it happens to go into effect under Obama, the Social Security system is in need of a massive overhaul - we are not going to be able to afford all the baby boomers when they start drawing their SS. Social Security was something on the order of about 15 - 20 years from overdrawing, which is a long ball estimate, and Medicare and Medicaid were ten years or less from over extension. Even if we manage to privatize Social Security or mandate that all funds withdrawn from pay will be withdrawn and held in an savings only account for only that person, there is still a massive gap that is going to have to be made up at one point or another. Even if the Bush plan had succeeded, and SS payments had gone into a government held 401k, it still would have tanked during the stock market slump. Beyond just a privately held savings account that you can't touch until age 65, there isn't a whole lot we can really do with Social Security. We may have to just pitch the whole thing.
This new op-ed explains some of the anti-labor things going on in the stimulus bill: http://www.capsweb.org/content.php?id=574&menu_id=8&menu_item_id=64
You DO know that companies place ads in places they hope to hook into cheap illegal labor, right?
I do know this, and I regularly check Mexican web sites for such adverts before doing business with a company. If they're skimping on labor costs, who knows what else they'll skimp on- such companies are untrustworthy.
It's like they contract out corporate lobbyist agenda to these few people and in turn those people, as if the are independent (and who here believes Friedman can balance an algebraic equation never mind tackle international trade theory) and then they spin a great tale of pure fiction, which in turn is promoted by additional corporate media interests and presented as truth.
My God, the United States is on the brink of Economic Armageddon and these various institutions don't get it...if the middle class, the U.S. goes down, the entire world, including their corporate media empires....goes down.
but the issue that is refused to be recognized so often is how this erodes wage levels by increasing supply as well as subverting employment law, taxes etc. i.e. a Race to the Bottom for everyone. I'm also saying Guatemala (in this case for that's where this guy is from) needs a strong regional economy that is also supporting it's national workforce.
I'm going after this idea that is so discounted in international trade theory and by economists which is that while they acknowledge regional/local economies may suffer from globalization, they completely discount the time window of that suffering as well as it's cumulative effects.
My next statement is pure hypothesis, completely unproved by me or investigated...but I suspect strongly that those local economies, or "regional economic destruction" add up to national economic malaise and their discounting in international trade theory is a huge "bad math" error. Again, not proven, I have to look into this, just a intuitive theory on my part.
The rest, the wage repression, oversupply, forced migration....other economists have talked about just the corporate pundits will rarely address.
more of a request to write up the budget deficit projections and the various issues with foreign held debt, possible comparison/contrast with 1930's/WWII deficit spending...
What I mean to say was more a reminder because many of the political sites....you really cannot analyze from first principles if that analyze leads to a conclusion which is against a party platform or some sort of agenda...
So, nothing "to you" per say but just a another reminder that we have the freedom to look at any policy, any paper, any agenda and analyze it from first principles, regardless of where it leads us....
i.e. you have the freedom on EP because it's an economic site that I dare say isn't always available on the political sites.
Yeah, the GOP vs. the deficit hawks...I don't know what the "GOP leadership" is about but it doesn't seem to be based on any economic theory I am aware of that has been validated in statistical reality. I think they too are reading their "data" from corporate lobbyist "research" papers, most notably CATO.
Huh? I hate what the Republican party has come to, but I've spent much of the past three weeks slamming the Obama Administration and the Wall Street tools in Congress. I think they've both sold out.
But maybe I am reading more into your statement than actually exists.
Well, even though you begin with a logical fallacy so weak it feels like pleading, I still gave the post a read.
Fact is, there is not just one thing "fueling" immigration. Knowing they can get paid more "uptown" than "downtown" is one reason workers come. And a very big reason for much of it of course.
Another is that it's part of an understood deal. The US has been recruiting labor for generations from Mexico. Before we got very intense about the border, it was a regular thing. Migration back and forth over the border. It's only lately that more and more people stay here. Because it's too hard to go back and forth with all the stepped up border patrol etc. I mean....it's not as if they float up here when low on cash, either. You DO know that companies place ads in places they hope to hook into cheap illegal labor, right? It's not a secret. Even before the Bracero program it was a regular thing. And before that, Mexicans' land was being taken by US citizens and their rights stripped away until bloggers today imagine the border is a real thing that can obliterate truth and history and the patterns of nature.
Anyway, it's ridiculous to jot off some simplified post that ends up saying the way to stop people from seeking ways to quell their hardship and hunger is to be punitive or more forceful. If not ridiculous, than just not very intelligent.
Migration north and south will definitely not ceased as long as this global system is one in which one nation can live rich in part at the expense of those around her. Think of it as a larger scale version of osmosis, that natural event dictated by inequal forces that both exist on disparate sides of a membrane wall and that will, in time, equalize.
Again, Tom Friedman proves that he is a massive tool.
It was apparent to me from the outset that their method of assigning ethnicity was totally useless in the modern world (and most likely, increasingly useless since the late 1700s and the first round of "global trade" with the invention of the Cutter sailing ship.
I didn't need to get more than three pages in to see that. Too bad I couldn't offer positive proof despite my "non-english" surname; my grandfather's patent for preform concrete stairs is 1958, and they didn't go back any further than 1975.
Took a bit. I've *got* to change my CSS to make links a more obvious color.
at the top. He references the paper, which I link to in a comment on here. The paper is pretty complex (although in my opinion written so to hide it's incredible assumptions and methodology flaws) and of course it's conclusions are being written as fact and now used around the Internets...
so I will link to the actual paper for when one reads it, hopefully you can parse out some of what I and probably others are pointing to and possibly find a few additional flaws.
and write up an analysis on deficit spending in recessions.
How does this compare to the deficit spending at maximum during WWII? What is different? Could the U.S. be heading towards hyperinflation, a plain default on it's debt or not?
I think we need to examine the big picture here in terms of who is holding U.S. debt, the service on this level of debt, the potential future GDP growth to pay it off and imports.
I'm a firm believer in Keynesian economics, deficit spending but only using government expenditures being recirculated into that domestic economy for a stimulative effect...
and I'm not so sure that's what is really happening here.
Would be awesome if you took it on and EP is officially non-partisan and that is so you can reach conclusions based on objectivity instead of towing the partisan line regardless of your discoveries.
What inspired the rant? I couldn't find a single link to either the brain dead patent report (I wanted to see if they, like one Usenet troll I ran into about 15 years ago, thought my grandfather was Aramaic!) or Tom "I never met a foreigner I didn't like" Friedman's article.
I forgot an additional in this absurd paper. They never propose the counter to show that if U.S. citizens had been used instead of temporary guest workers, the patent output would have been the same...then my favorite, literally they do not count all of the patent holders "surnames" of each patent. A patent can be generated by an entire team and is often the work for 2 or 3. Then, frankly inventors are left off of patents as well. This is completely illegal, but it assuredly happens in high tech. Ask anyone in Silicon valley if they know of an engineer who got screwed in a patent and their name left off, attributed to another ....I'll bet that survey would be > 50% who say yes.
I was thinking we should hold a contest. The research paper that is the most Economic fiction of the year award. There are so many to choose from so we could have the winner and then runner's up.
I am positive a lot of these think tanks and in this case, Harvard (which writes propaganda continually due to their own interests on this in their own newspaper) believe regular people do not read their research....well, the reality is we too have PhDs and Masters degrees, knowledge of statistics, scientific methodology....so I say we all use it and start blasting these things.
These "studies" end up on Congressional Staffers desks as "fact" when they simply are not fact and one can see this clearly when one reads the research paper itself.
This one, here. I mean seriously read this...
can you believe anyone in their right mind would take two homogeneous cultures and try to compare those to the most diverse, heterogeneous demographics in the world and claim that is valid? Jesus.
I'm just wondering if I wrap my mathematics into logs...can I get an Academic job at Harvard. Ooops, guess not because I won't conclude what they want in advance. God.
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