Somehow this got changed into a discussion on immigration and H1B, an area that I don't focus on.
If the rules have changed since I've retired then I'm not aware of all the new ones. There is a nice write-up on Wikipedia, I have no idea if it is accurate or not.
I will now resume discussing issues that I'm interested in. If this doesn't fit your conception of what is suitable for your site, there are many other venues. Some even read what I write before criticizing.
Yes, there are many studies at this point which prove H-1B is being used as a labor arbitrage vehicle. The GAO, Urban Institute, NACE, etc.
Then, a news article article is not real economics. George Borjas is real economist and overall the research shows at the lower skills illegal immigration is negatively affecting wages. Even at the high end, any sudden influxes in supply with wage repress. This is a fundamental law of economics, supply and demand.
I think I appreciated your point just fine and it's right in the about section of this site, the FAQ, user guide to not name call. It's an economics site and you're calling people xenophobes.
It is spin, do you honestly believe examining the notorious unemployment rate or the trade deficit is an accurate statistical method when examining labor markets and real wages per supply within a domestic economy?
Are you even aware that illegal labor was recruited in order to union bust and is a known method? It started with the Farm workers union in the 1980's and then with the meatpackers union.
Technically H1-B jobs can only be filled if it can be demonstrated that there is no suitable candidate available in the US.
If you look in Computerworld, for example, you will see boilerplate ads from firms fulfilling the letter of the law by running these ads. I'm perfectly willing to concede that this is a sham, but then why does the situation exist?
The reason workers (whether technical or meat packers) get screwed is because they are not organized. If you read my essay (cited above) you will see that there is a high degree of correlation between the level of unionization and the degree of economic equality in a society. This is true over time (as the decline of unionization chart illustrates) as well as between countries.
For some reason technical and professional workers have been led to believe that they can fend for themselves and that organizing so that they can bargain collectively is only for blue collar jobs.
This is the type of class-based propaganda that the capitalists use to keep the labor force from becoming unified and working for the benefit of all. There are many highly skilled people who belong to unions, this ranges from nurses to college professors.
If the traditional industrial union model is not suitable for those who deal more in mind work then it is up to them to devise a new type of organization. I proposed such a possible arrangement a couple of years ago and I see that there are now several groups doing something similar.
For many skilled workers salary isn't their only concern, they also are interested in keeping their skills up-to-date, job transfer assistance and portable retirement and health plans.
I'm not aware that I said anything about globalization, inevitable or not, why does everyone keep putting words into my mouth?
I'll repeat my point again. If people spend all their time demonizing other workers then they are missing the real target, the class that has no allegiance to the country and can pickup and move themselves or their capital whenever they wish.
Lumping many issues into "immigration" and then making the leap the leap to "xenophobia" is an easy trick used by the expansionists.
Let's focus on the H-1B/L-1:
H-1B jobs are not advertised to American workers- they are reserved for citizens of foreign countries.
The H-1B expansionists claim that U.S. citizens can't fill these jobs. Since the jobs aren't advertised, how can they know this?
When the H-1B returns to his country of origin, he gets his social security back. An L-1 need not contribute anything to our economy since he can be paid in country of origin bypassing the U.S. Treasury altogether.
The majority of H-1B applications are for entry-level (check the LCAs). Why can't we train American youth.
The H-1B/L-1 is a great enabler of gender and racial discrimination. 20 years ago, the tech industry had a growing number of women and African-Americans. Sadly, that trend has been reversed.
And please, spare us the aphorism that "globalization is inevitable". Globalization amounts to moving capital to where the labor is cheapest and, where possible, moving cheap labor to where the capital is.
I'll tell you what, you post an entry laying out your understanding of immigration and then we can all start from the same place.
As to the issue of immigration depressing wages, this is more complicated than you suggest. There is some evidence that low wage jobs (such as those in slaughter houses) are depressed by immigration, the issue with H1-B's is not as clear.
I don't know why you call my essay "spin", there is nothing in there that isn't based upon publicly available data.
Just today there is an article in the NY Times about tomato farmers in PA not planting this year because the heightened enforcement on undocumented workers means that the pickers won't be available. If the immigrants were really displacing native workers then this shortage would be made up from the ranks of the unemployed. Apparently there is more to this story then simple job displacement.
There is another article which shows that Social Security is getting as much as 15% of its revenue from undocumented workers who have to pay in, but will never collect benefits.
To put things in old-fashioned language: the various sectors of the working class are being set against each other by the capitalists who gain by keeping the workers from uniting. Immigration policy is just another of the areas used to split workers into subgroups.
I think that was my original point, which you seem to have failed to appreciate and have gone off on a tangent.
My representative, Michelle Bachmann (R-MN) has failed to schedule one public meeting with her constituents since she has been elected. What I can't figure out is why anyone would vote for her in the first place. From what I can see, she has only one agenda-hers.
Wage arbitrage is the practice of creating a reduction of wages. This generally occurs through increasing the number of workers to create a market glut, thereby reducing the value of skills in the open marketplace.
In professions of the highly skilled (requiring eductional training) this occurs through displacing US workers by increasing the number of workers available for these jobs via the visa process. In the US, the H1-B visa is the normal means for this practice. Most of these visas go to computer science professionals. The amount of experience and skill sets are not considered for this visa, and US workers are not considered before jobs are offered to foreign nationals. This is why Bill Gates and other members of the Information Technology Association of America (ITAA) which includes the major US tech companies and India outsourcing compancies, have made massive contributions to US senators and representatives to continually introduce H-1B attachments to "must-pass" legislation which try to stuff it through under the radar.
For professions of limited skills (requiring no educational training) this occurs through the importation or illegal entry of legal or illegal workers. This is why the US Chamber of Commerce supports amnesty -- and why US senators and representatives who have received campaign contributions from entities profiting from reduced US citizen wages actively support illegal amnesty.
The Hard Truth Of Immigration: NO SOCIETY HAS A BOUNDLESS CAPACITY TO ACCEPT NEWCOMERS, ESPECIALLY WHEN MANY OF THEM ARE POOR OR UNSKILLED WORKERS
Newsweek, June, 2005 by Robert J. Samuelson http://www.newsweek.com/id/50081
"The stakes are simple: will immigration continue to foster national pride and strength or will it cause more and more weakness and anger?"
My guess is that with robertdfeinman and others leading the charge on weakness and fomenting anger in others, who have been directly affected -- such as being displaced by a foreign worker on a visa for example, immigration will continue to be a hot button issue in the presidential campaigning. Samuelson's article, and this is by someone who favors immigration mind you, suggests that right now (the article was written in 2005 so it is WAY overdue) the country needs to take a breather from the levels of immigration we've had over the past decade or so.
We can't keep up this pace of unregulated immigration. Period.
Considering your opinions. We go into immigration, wage arbitrage extensively because myself, I'm a H-1B activist and that is for American Professionals that I am an activist. Well versed in labor economics and illegal immigration does indeed repress wages, it's econ 101.
So does H-1B. This is a fundamental element in labor economics, immigration and migration. Not only that, one of the reasons I started this blog, beyond wanting to discuss more in depth overall economics is to get away from precisely the sort of spin you just linked to. Even Paul Krugman will tell you illegal immigration represses wages, any sudden influxes in a labor supply will do that.
I have no idea what either of you are talking about. If you have issues with immigration then what has that to do with my distinction between those who have to work and those who don't? Do you deny that some people are motivated by xenophobia? I listed that as only one of the ways people are kept from understanding where their class interests lie.
As for statistics, of what use are they without a framework to make sense of them?
If you want to discuss immigration (which I doubt will be rational with someone who calls himself LouDobbsDem) then here's my take on the subject, complete with lots of stats and graphs.
Firstly please try to write detailed economics posts. We're trying to focus on policy and actual facts in the economic policy, statistical sphere.
Secondly I have to agree that claiming xenophobia is some reason that focus in the middle class, national interest, working America's interests is pure spin coming from the public relations campaign of those who have a vested interest in stopping any tightening of immigration law.
I write specifically on these issues, especially H-1B, global labor arbitrage, outsourcing and we really want to stick to the statistics, the facts, labor economics.
Hopefully people will focus their writings accordingly.
When I first heard those railing out those conspiracy theories I thought "what a bunch of kooks" but the more I read the watch the more I think, well, maybe not.
Midtowng, this is an exceptional post! I'm rereading it, finding new info on each reread. I did smell a rat on the Dubai Citigroup investment but now you're pointing out unusual profits in comparison to domestic investors.
I hope this post gets a lot of readers!
I was oblivious to SWF until this read and it also does appear generally Paulson is doing the bait n switch, opposite of apppearances so far.
Click this link for more and the actual 218 page plan from Treasury Secretary Paulson's plan.
Paulson's 218-page ``Blueprint for Regulatory Reform,'' commissioned two months before credit markets seized up in August, said more rules aren't the answer to the current period of turmoil. The former chairman of Goldman Sachs Group Inc. said the system of regulating banks, securities firms and insurance companies is outmoded, and the Federal Reserve should expand its oversight of financial services beyond banks
yes, the spin from these people keeps on coming. That NFAP study is truly a work of fiction and the statistics are pure make believe.
If you want to cross post your blog, you can actually put a link up at the top to say it's from your blog and repost it for more readership. And your blog should be read, good citizen journalism.
I have more details in the user guide. Welcome to EP!
Wake up is right. I'm fairly discouraged about the blogs for they used to be a place of citizen discourage to try to obtain real policy change, yet these days it seems more interested in promoting some candidate, regardless of their policy positions and even promote multinational corporate agenda items.
What happened to representing the American people? I guess it doesn't pay.
China but overall it looks like China will exceed the United States economically in a few years.
Bank of China has been affected by the subprime, how much? It mentions $80 Billion and yesterday they dumped some of it.
But overall they are sitting pretty.
Did you see McMillion's China report in the studies section?
It's dated (3COM deal was blocked) but overall accurate and in depth.
Somehow this got changed into a discussion on immigration and H1B, an area that I don't focus on.
If the rules have changed since I've retired then I'm not aware of all the new ones. There is a nice write-up on Wikipedia, I have no idea if it is accurate or not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1B_visa
I will now resume discussing issues that I'm interested in. If this doesn't fit your conception of what is suitable for your site, there are many other venues. Some even read what I write before criticizing.
now you are posting false information on H-1B. No, they do not have to find or consider a US worker first.
Yes, there are many studies at this point which prove H-1B is being used as a labor arbitrage vehicle. The GAO, Urban Institute, NACE, etc.
Then, a news article article is not real economics. George Borjas is real economist and overall the research shows at the lower skills illegal immigration is negatively affecting wages. Even at the high end, any sudden influxes in supply with wage repress. This is a fundamental law of economics, supply and demand.
I think I appreciated your point just fine and it's right in the about section of this site, the FAQ, user guide to not name call. It's an economics site and you're calling people xenophobes.
It is spin, do you honestly believe examining the notorious unemployment rate or the trade deficit is an accurate statistical method when examining labor markets and real wages per supply within a domestic economy?
Are you even aware that illegal labor was recruited in order to union bust and is a known method? It started with the Farm workers union in the 1980's and then with the meatpackers union.
Technically H1-B jobs can only be filled if it can be demonstrated that there is no suitable candidate available in the US.
If you look in Computerworld, for example, you will see boilerplate ads from firms fulfilling the letter of the law by running these ads. I'm perfectly willing to concede that this is a sham, but then why does the situation exist?
The reason workers (whether technical or meat packers) get screwed is because they are not organized. If you read my essay (cited above) you will see that there is a high degree of correlation between the level of unionization and the degree of economic equality in a society. This is true over time (as the decline of unionization chart illustrates) as well as between countries.
For some reason technical and professional workers have been led to believe that they can fend for themselves and that organizing so that they can bargain collectively is only for blue collar jobs.
This is the type of class-based propaganda that the capitalists use to keep the labor force from becoming unified and working for the benefit of all. There are many highly skilled people who belong to unions, this ranges from nurses to college professors.
If the traditional industrial union model is not suitable for those who deal more in mind work then it is up to them to devise a new type of organization. I proposed such a possible arrangement a couple of years ago and I see that there are now several groups doing something similar.
Here's my original proposal:
A proposal for a worker's affinity group
For many skilled workers salary isn't their only concern, they also are interested in keeping their skills up-to-date, job transfer assistance and portable retirement and health plans.
I'm not aware that I said anything about globalization, inevitable or not, why does everyone keep putting words into my mouth?
I'll repeat my point again. If people spend all their time demonizing other workers then they are missing the real target, the class that has no allegiance to the country and can pickup and move themselves or their capital whenever they wish.
Lumping many issues into "immigration" and then making the leap the leap to "xenophobia" is an easy trick used by the expansionists.
Let's focus on the H-1B/L-1:
And please, spare us the aphorism that "globalization is inevitable". Globalization amounts to moving capital to where the labor is cheapest and, where possible, moving cheap labor to where the capital is.
Mr. Feinman, I'm a populist and damn proud of it.
I'll tell you what, you post an entry laying out your understanding of immigration and then we can all start from the same place.
As to the issue of immigration depressing wages, this is more complicated than you suggest. There is some evidence that low wage jobs (such as those in slaughter houses) are depressed by immigration, the issue with H1-B's is not as clear.
I don't know why you call my essay "spin", there is nothing in there that isn't based upon publicly available data.
Just today there is an article in the NY Times about tomato farmers in PA not planting this year because the heightened enforcement on undocumented workers means that the pickers won't be available. If the immigrants were really displacing native workers then this shortage would be made up from the ranks of the unemployed. Apparently there is more to this story then simple job displacement.
There is another article which shows that Social Security is getting as much as 15% of its revenue from undocumented workers who have to pay in, but will never collect benefits.
To put things in old-fashioned language: the various sectors of the working class are being set against each other by the capitalists who gain by keeping the workers from uniting. Immigration policy is just another of the areas used to split workers into subgroups.
I think that was my original point, which you seem to have failed to appreciate and have gone off on a tangent.
My representative, Michelle Bachmann (R-MN) has failed to schedule one public meeting with her constituents since she has been elected. What I can't figure out is why anyone would vote for her in the first place. From what I can see, she has only one agenda-hers.
and read the answer before you vote. ;)
Wage arbitrage is the practice of creating a reduction of wages. This generally occurs through increasing the number of workers to create a market glut, thereby reducing the value of skills in the open marketplace.
In professions of the highly skilled (requiring eductional training) this occurs through displacing US workers by increasing the number of workers available for these jobs via the visa process. In the US, the H1-B visa is the normal means for this practice. Most of these visas go to computer science professionals. The amount of experience and skill sets are not considered for this visa, and US workers are not considered before jobs are offered to foreign nationals. This is why Bill Gates and other members of the Information Technology Association of America (ITAA) which includes the major US tech companies and India outsourcing compancies, have made massive contributions to US senators and representatives to continually introduce H-1B attachments to "must-pass" legislation which try to stuff it through under the radar.
For professions of limited skills (requiring no educational training) this occurs through the importation or illegal entry of legal or illegal workers. This is why the US Chamber of Commerce supports amnesty -- and why US senators and representatives who have received campaign contributions from entities profiting from reduced US citizen wages actively support illegal amnesty.
Follow the money.
The Hard Truth Of Immigration: NO SOCIETY HAS A BOUNDLESS CAPACITY TO ACCEPT NEWCOMERS, ESPECIALLY WHEN MANY OF THEM ARE POOR OR UNSKILLED WORKERS
Newsweek, June, 2005 by Robert J. Samuelson
http://www.newsweek.com/id/50081
"The stakes are simple: will immigration continue to foster national pride and strength or will it cause more and more weakness and anger?"
My guess is that with robertdfeinman and others leading the charge on weakness and fomenting anger in others, who have been directly affected -- such as being displaced by a foreign worker on a visa for example, immigration will continue to be a hot button issue in the presidential campaigning. Samuelson's article, and this is by someone who favors immigration mind you, suggests that right now (the article was written in 2005 so it is WAY overdue) the country needs to take a breather from the levels of immigration we've had over the past decade or so.
We can't keep up this pace of unregulated immigration. Period.
Considering your opinions. We go into immigration, wage arbitrage extensively because myself, I'm a H-1B activist and that is for American Professionals that I am an activist. Well versed in labor economics and illegal immigration does indeed repress wages, it's econ 101.
So does H-1B. This is a fundamental element in labor economics, immigration and migration. Not only that, one of the reasons I started this blog, beyond wanting to discuss more in depth overall economics is to get away from precisely the sort of spin you just linked to. Even Paul Krugman will tell you illegal immigration represses wages, any sudden influxes in a labor supply will do that.
I have no idea what either of you are talking about. If you have issues with immigration then what has that to do with my distinction between those who have to work and those who don't? Do you deny that some people are motivated by xenophobia? I listed that as only one of the ways people are kept from understanding where their class interests lie.
As for statistics, of what use are they without a framework to make sense of them?
If you want to discuss immigration (which I doubt will be rational with someone who calls himself LouDobbsDem) then here's my take on the subject, complete with lots of stats and graphs.
Immigration facts debunked
I also have a problem with people who are unwilling to put their name on their opinions.
Firstly please try to write detailed economics posts. We're trying to focus on policy and actual facts in the economic policy, statistical sphere.
Secondly I have to agree that claiming xenophobia is some reason that focus in the middle class, national interest, working America's interests is pure spin coming from the public relations campaign of those who have a vested interest in stopping any tightening of immigration law.
I write specifically on these issues, especially H-1B, global labor arbitrage, outsourcing and we really want to stick to the statistics, the facts, labor economics.
Hopefully people will focus their writings accordingly.
Great post! Do you know why the stock market rallied today considering just how much in debt the US is?
That's a special interest claim to say anyone who wants a controlled immigration policy is a racist.
Name calling people who work for a living and know exactly what's going on in their home towns on jobs I thought wasn't going to happen over here.
When I first heard those railing out those conspiracy theories I thought "what a bunch of kooks" but the more I read the watch the more I think, well, maybe not.
Midtowng, this is an exceptional post! I'm rereading it, finding new info on each reread. I did smell a rat on the Dubai Citigroup investment but now you're pointing out unusual profits in comparison to domestic investors.
I hope this post gets a lot of readers!
I was oblivious to SWF until this read and it also does appear generally Paulson is doing the bait n switch, opposite of apppearances so far.
Click this link for more and the actual 218 page plan from Treasury Secretary Paulson's plan.
yes, the spin from these people keeps on coming. That NFAP study is truly a work of fiction and the statistics are pure make believe.
If you want to cross post your blog, you can actually put a link up at the top to say it's from your blog and repost it for more readership. And your blog should be read, good citizen journalism.
I have more details in the user guide. Welcome to EP!
Wake up is right. I'm fairly discouraged about the blogs for they used to be a place of citizen discourage to try to obtain real policy change, yet these days it seems more interested in promoting some candidate, regardless of their policy positions and even promote multinational corporate agenda items.
What happened to representing the American people? I guess it doesn't pay.
China but overall it looks like China will exceed the United States economically in a few years.
Bank of China has been affected by the subprime, how much? It mentions $80 Billion and yesterday they dumped some of it.
But overall they are sitting pretty.
Did you see McMillion's China report in the studies section?
It's dated (3COM deal was blocked) but overall accurate and in depth.
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